Before the loss of all of the library, we created a law after the Tyrion case that allowed us to imprison people who the community deemed a reasonable threat. This is even less so a problem than the currently proposed legislation.

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Lord Siden Rua of Fichina
House of Rua
Imperial Minister of Surveyors and Civil Engineers

You know, you're exactly right Haedren and Chairman; I'm feeling quite regretful of posting this.

Suspension of voting rights while imprisoned is one thing, and one that should perhaps be revisited at a later date; suspension of voting rights while awaiting trial or even simply 'under investigation' - a term which has no legal definition - is, as you succinctly state, no compatible with 'innocent until proven guilty' and fair due process.

Going along with the discussion, this seemed to make sense at the time; looking back on this not a few hours later I realize that this is in contravention of some of teh rights to due process that we hold dear. Apologies and also a fair degree of embarrassment for this.

This is why we keep forums conversation going, so that the 'sober second thought' can always step in. I agree with the thoughts against the language I proposed, and thank you sirs for making me remember it

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Wysterian Labourer's Council
Currently Holding Stewardship of Wysteria
Minister for Applications and Settlement
Forums Administrator

I think the main gripe that the nay-sayers of this law have is that the law makes it appears as though someone under suspicion of breaking a law (who has reasonable doubt and may not have actually committed said crime), will have unlawful suspension of voting rights. In a case like this, the legal trial is to decide of said person actually committed said crime.

I think the intention of the law is to suspend voting rights for those who, although are awaiting legal trial, have undoubtedly committed a crime. In a case like this, the legal trial is more of a formality to decide on appropriate punishment.

I'll provide an analogy (probably a gross over-simplification but I think it provides a good example). A man is awaiting trial for killing a man. No one saw him do it, but there is a good amount of evidence to show that he might've done it. He awaits trial to see whether or not he actually did it. If he didn't, he's free. If he did, appropriate punishment is carrying out. Now, if a man is awaiting trial for killing a man, in a public mall with hundreds of witnesses, the trial isn't really to see whether or not he did it. It's more to decide on the motive and appropriate punishment. I believe the crafters of this law are worried about the latter. Those are my two cents.

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Jakon Vaegar
Count of Valtoros
Cariad of Valyria

How about this: For the judicial process, we can have several stages.

A) Accused, but not awaiting trail, in which an individual has been accused of a crime, and the minister of justice has begun preliminary investigation into the claim. At this point the person accused retains all rights to vote they normally possess.

B) Awaiting trial. At this stage, the minister of justice has found or been provided with enough evidence to cast reasonable suspicion that a crime has been commited and a trial is necessary. At this point, if the accused has voting rights, they are temporarily suspended until the trial has completed. If found guilty, continued suspension of voting rights may be part of the sentence. If found innocent, all voting rights immediately return.

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By the will of Azarn
-Erastil
-King of Pyrencia
-The Hydra
For a full list of titles, please see enclosed document.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=741

That wording is perhaps better, Myron.

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Petra Ravnikaar of The Veil

I am absolutely in favour of suspension of voting rights as a potential punishment after a guilty verdict has been reached, not before. I dont see what suspending the voting rights of an accused player would logically achieve.

The old mantra of 'Innocent until proven guilty' applies right up until a verdict has been decided by a jury/judge and only when a guilty verdict is passed should any kind of punishment be handed down.

Correct me If I'm wrong, but there is no concept of Bail in Hermertia, which is the only situation I would feel a suspension of an individuals rights may be appropriate before a trial has commenced, however historically bail restrictions are usually handed down to prevent an accused person from fleeing the authorities and evading trial which I doubt would be a concern given the nature of how game play works in minecraft.

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Prince Septimus Cersil, Lord of Wychwood
Minister of Surveyors and Civil Engineers
Warden of the North
- Recipient of the Pyrencian Good Effort Award
- 2016 Winner of the 'Medal of S'alright'
- Stronger than an ant
- The Tallest

I would have to agree as stated before to some. I think those that have been convicted and imprisoned should have their voting rights suspended, not revoked as when they get out they would be reinstated.

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Scrios V
King of Perth, Brother of Valyria

This undercuts our legal system by leaving the power to punish individuals up to the subjective opinion of one person. It also undercuts the fundamental concept of innocent until proven guilty. Reasonable suspicion or indictment is not equal to a conviction and is no grounds to hand down a punishment like this.

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Ulrik Gunnarson
Duke of the Gathered Races of Hermertia Homeland (GRHH)
The Chairman of the GRHH Co.

There are circumstances and individuals that this could be required for. If we had another Tyrion, would we just let him run around and do whatever because he didn't stand trial? What if he didnt come to trial? Would we allow him to have run of the server until he burned down every city in his path because there is no law regarding it? Of course not, we would jail him anyway. Even if he didn't stand trial.

This is different though. This is to prevent the same thing, just in the case of those with voting powers.

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Lord Siden Rua of Fichina
House of Rua
Imperial Minister of Surveyors and Civil Engineers

Echoing previous points, innocent until proven guilty is a fundamental part of a just legal system & I don't think this can be semantically wriggled out of.