V. Contractual Law

There is no international status, recognition or legal protection of contractual law. This is left to bilateral treaties or national/county law.

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Lord Siden Rua of Fichina
House of Rua
Imperial Minister of Surveyors and Civil Engineers

I see no need for changes to this section of the Indoles Carta and recommend it be kept unaltered. From discussions and debate, a community consensus seems to endure to the effect that contractual law should remain voluntarily recognized by individuals realms as a sovereign right but should not be recognized internationally; this language thus requires no alterations.

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Wysterian Labourer's Council
Currently Holding Stewardship of Wysteria
Minister for Applications and Settlement
Forums Administrator

Agreed with Nicholas following discussions. No changes required.

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Petra Ravnikaar of The Veil

I disagree changes should definitely be required here. As it stands, the people have absolutely no protection over contracts. If one side fails to uphold their end of the deal and doesn't intend to, the only thing the other party can do is take it or go to war. If the party is a smaller nation, war doesn't seem like that appealing of an idea and shouldn't be a first and only resort to a problem. The council doesnt have to enforce contracts, but they should at least be allowed to be brought up in court as a civil case.

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Lord Siden Rua of Fichina
House of Rua
Imperial Minister of Surveyors and Civil Engineers

Agreed. This only adds to the rich and complex experience of the server.

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Ealdorman Cerdic Beoden Accynnafon of Östlond
Runner Up of the Glas Claddach Boat Building Competition
Minister of Justice

I think this section needs to be updated. At this point in time, there is no legal method of enforcing contracts besides war, so they are essentially useless. Contracts have a variety of applications, from establishing longer term trade deals to making sure vassals behave as their liege wishes. If we provide some manner of international legal status, then we have access to this useful resource. Certainly, there will have to be laws governing the way contracts are written to avoid exploitation, but I think it is worth it.

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Ulrik Gunnarson
Duke of the Gathered Races of Hermertia Homeland (GRHH)
The Chairman of the GRHH Co.

I believe it is the council's duty to help protect the people of the empire from those that want to do others harm. So far the only argument that I've heard is "that's the way its always been" or "it makes things more interesting" which in my opinion are totally illegitimate arguments and are not in the spirit of what the council should be doing. It still stands that war is the first and only option to sort out the conflict and that should absolutely not be an issue. (Lore off: yes wars can be fun sometimes as a competitive mode, but this is regarding an issue more important than "Making things more interesting". Inciting chaos for the sake of chaos is not something we should be promoting.) The only way to Some members of the council are currently taking a very regressive stance in saying that "nothing bad has happened before, so why would we need this now?" As it stands, baiting someone into a contract to receive goods and then not fulfilling their end of the contract is a totally legal form of theft that cannot in any way be brought up with the council. The council should take a proactive stance and fix this issue before it becomes a problem, not afterwards.

This is my proposed wording change.

V. Contractual Law

Contracts between realms under the Council of the Crowned are to be recognized by the Council of the Crowned. The Council has no obligation to enforce any contract, but will hear any civil case brought up regarding the illegitimacy/failure to uphold said contracts as they may be in violation of law.

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Lord Siden Rua of Fichina
House of Rua
Imperial Minister of Surveyors and Civil Engineers

Discussion has yielded this proposed language:

Contracts, Treaties, and Multilateral Agreements arranged between sovereign realms recognized under the Council of the Crowned shall be legally recognised and enforceable by the Imperial Court if the contract in question is fully and publicly declared and detailed in the Imperial Court. Legally recognised contracts are subject to the scrutiny of the Imperial Court and may invite enforcement by way of a civil case if any party subject to the contract in question provides evidence of impropriety by any party subject to the contract.

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Wysterian Labourer's Council
Currently Holding Stewardship of Wysteria
Minister for Applications and Settlement
Forums Administrator

Nicholas alone made this language with no discussion of others. Please don't speak for others when you alone wrote this.

It is also unnecessarily wordy for the sake of being wordy. I've shortened the language to be more precise and less redundant. I'm sorry if i get a little ranty about this topic, but more using more words to sound smarter is a freshman in college tactic. Also using words that the average person has heard once only worsens your communication as it is lost on the audience and therefore is actually detrimental to your language.

Contracts arranged between realms under the Council of the Crowned shall be legally recognized by the Imperial Court if the contract in question is publicly declared and detailed in the Imperial Court beforehand. Legally recognized contracts are subject to the scrutiny of the Imperial Court and signers to the contract in question may be subject to prosecution if any party to the contract provides evidence of impropriety by another party's hand.

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Lord Siden Rua of Fichina
House of Rua
Imperial Minister of Surveyors and Civil Engineers

Well, that's not true. I drafted up this language on the spot and presented it in Mumble for review and general spitballing; I asked others to share their thoughts on my take and critique it. Ignis voiced general approval; Mark recommended the changing of a specific word; Sam had a look over it; discussion did indeed take place. You were there as others shared their thoughts on this Siden. I then posted it here not as any kind of authoritative statement speaking for the community but simply sharing one possible take on what this section may end up looking like and requesting further feedback. Since, you know, we can still discuss matters such as these on the forums as well. Please don't present this as being a case of my strongarming the carta process.

But we're off topic.

Your language captures the spirit of the concept of contractual law that it seems we'll be moving towards. So, however, does mine. I stand by my original language (altered as per Mark's suggestion to replace the slightly archaic 'malfeasence' with 'impropriety' ): at 77 words to your 71 it is hardly too verbose and negligibly longer than your own. In my humble opinion it is clear and accurate, and on the strength of other voices of agreement in the course of our discussion this afternoon I raised it here for further brainstorming.

As we move forward towards refining contractual law, we'll no doubt be hearing different viewpoints on this complex issue; constraining brainstorming by limiting what can be posted here or trying to imply that an individual's thoughts should not be shared because they are not representative of everyone seems at odds with what this process should represent.

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Wysterian Labourer's Council
Currently Holding Stewardship of Wysteria
Minister for Applications and Settlement
Forums Administrator