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PostPosted: May 31st, 2016, 5:07 am 
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King

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This is a bit silly, IMHO. You shouldn't be able to just build one boat and have such an OP warping capability. I think one would need several boats, international boats built in cooperation with others, port infrastructure, and basically a proper county.


I should have clarified. I meant after proper infrastructure has been established. Once we nail down how large a boat needs to be in order to travel, it might be nice to only have to build one larger boat if you're only going to be traveling from that city to one other realm on a consistent basis (again, after proper infrastructure is laid out).

For example, I might have 4 ships in my port, but 3 of them are only 20 meters long while the other is the standard length and can warp to my neighbor.

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PostPosted: May 31st, 2016, 5:10 am 
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King Arjen IV wrote:
Quote:
This is a bit silly, IMHO. You shouldn't be able to just build one boat and have such an OP warping capability. I think one would need several boats, international boats built in cooperation with others, port infrastructure, and basically a proper county.


I should have clarified. I meant after proper infrastructure has been established. Once we nail down how large a boat needs to be in order to travel, it might be nice to only have to build one larger boat if you're only going to be traveling from that city to one other realm on a consistent basis (again, after proper infrastructure is laid out).

For example, I might have 4 ships in my port, but 3 of them are only 20 meters long while the other is the standard length and can warp to my neighbor.


Ah ok, thanks.

I do like the idea of needing an additional boat for each warp "point."

In terms of boat size requirements, I'll give some of my own personal experiences in a separate post. I'll write that up now.

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PostPosted: May 31st, 2016, 5:13 am 
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King

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Sorry, takes me a few posts to actually formulate my full thoughts haha. But yeah, this is an important topic and deserves this kind of debate. Imo, we should all discuss it on mumble a bit before voting on standards and such, cause this will affect us all greatly (in a good way!)

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PostPosted: May 31st, 2016, 5:55 am 
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Thoughts on boat size requirements

I enjoy building boats, as some of you know. I've even built a few on this server. Boats can take very little time, or a lot of time, depending on the size, detail, and care put into the construction of said ship.

I'm sure in time we will determine the number of ships needed, but this post will seek to address the size of the boat needed to be considered a boat worthy of traveling open ocean - a boat capable of "taking" players to distant lands.

Assuming our "timeline" is roughly "medieval european," let's examine the most common oceanic vessels during the period spanning 900-1400 or so.

Snekkja/Knarr/Sailed Longboat

A viking longboat with a sail, it was used in the age of Viking Expansion, crossing the North Sea, the Atlantic to Iceland and Greenland, and even all the way to the Middle East. They were commonly 20+ meters long.

Here's an example of an in game Snekkja, clocking in at 25 blocks long:

Image

Depending on the care put into a ship like this, they could be built in an hour, or take up to 3 hours.

Suggestion: Capable of traveling any expanse of ocean. However for our purposes, this could only work for a warp point if multiple ships of the same type were built, and only for closer neighbors along a coast. For example, a warp point between Casadia and Kaine.

Cog

Single masted ships with multiple decks, this clinker constructed ships were used to transport cargo and soldiers across the North, Baltic and Mediterranean Seas. Can be anywhere from 15-30 meters in length, and deck numbers vary. Eventually, larger variants would be called a "Hulk" and were the ships used prior to the use of Caravels. Capable of travel to anywhere known to Europeans until 1492.

The "cogs" I've made in game really represent something closer to a Hulk in size, and with their aft and poop decks, would be considered capable of defending themselves against pirates:

Image

This one is 35m (blocks) long. 6.5 hour build time, not including resource gathering.

Image

This one is 25m long, and took about 3 hours to build.

Suggestion: For cog/hulk like ships, larger ones can take so much time (unless you are a lazy shipbuilder, and if so, hire good shipbuilders) that they should be seen as sufficient for crossing our "oceans". Smaller ones (25 meters or less) should require multiple ships to be built in a formation, or at a dock, or a combo of the two. Keep in mind that two of Christopher Columbus' ships were only 15m long, and the largest 20m long.

Caravel/Carrack:

Speaking of Christopher's boats, the 2 smaller ones were caravels and the larger one was a carrack. This seems to be the most common ship on the server, somewhat :p anywhere from 15-35 meters in length.

Suggestion: Same considerations as the cog. It really depends on how hard we want to make this, and if we want to consider quality just as much as the "length" of the boat. More narrow than a Cog, but more capable as well.

Galley

Basically a mediterranean longship, these have a long history of travel around the Mediterranean. They became quite huge in the late medieval period, and the Venetians used them to great effect in their trade empire.

Suggestion: Same as viking longships.

In summary, there needs to be a discussion on quality vs. length vs. quantity here.

I personally don't want to see massive, 50m long boring ships with no detail. I'd much rather see people building ports full of more detailed, beautiful ships that are smaller.

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PostPosted: May 31st, 2016, 11:45 pm 
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King

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great post Mark. I'm all for this type of discussion!

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PostPosted: June 8th, 2016, 10:29 pm 
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Here is the proposed final draft of CB-12: Maritime Fast-Travel Locations. Please leave thoughts and comments below!

Google docs link for somewhat nicer formatting: Link

Quote:
Maritime Fast-Travel Connections

1. A Maritime Fast-Travel Connection shall be defined as: a naval connection, feasible within existing lore and supported by physical infrastructure including but not limited to sufficient naval and harbor facilities, local naval development and activity of the port, international development and naval presence, local development and cultivation of commerce and industry, and alternative methods of transportation and travel to the Travel Point including overland and nether, serviced by a minimum of one (1) pair (2) of naval vessels that transport an individual between the location and another connected location in Hermertia meeting the same requirements.

2. The Commission for Maritime Navigation shall be created as a subsidiary of the Imperial Ministry for Surveyors and Civil Engineers. Is is the stated goal of the Commission to review each and every application for the creation of a new Maritime Fast-Travel Connection prior to sending the application for voting by the Council of the Crowned. The Commission will be chaired by a Chairperson.

a. The Chairperson of the Commission may be appointed as a Deputy Minister at the discretion of the Minister of Surveyors and Civil Engineers. Other individuals may assist in completing the duties of the Commission at the discretion of the Minister for surveyors and Civil Engineers. If no Chairperson exists, the role is automatically assumed by the Minister for Surveyors and Civil Engineers.

b. It is the Chairperson’s responsibility to:

i. Collect and judge each and every application submitted to the Commission and to ensure that each individual application meets the below requirements for the approval and implementation of a Maritime Fast-Travel Point before sending each individual application to the Council of the Crowned for voting.

ii. Physically travel to each end of every proposed Maritime Fast-Travel Connection to confirm that the submitted application is wholly accurate and that the application meets the full requirements for the implementation of a Maritime Fast-Travel Connection.

c. The Chairperson of the Commission for Maritime Navigation will have the responsibility of reviewing each and every application submitted to the Commission, ensuring that the application meets all requirements, and travelling to each end of each proposed Maritime Fast-Travel Connection in order to physically inspect and verify the contents of the application.

d. An application meeting with the confidence of the Commission for Maritime Navigation will be sent by the Commission to the Council of the Crowned, where a vote in unison will approve the implementation of the Maritime Fast-Travel Connection and allow the Connection to be implemented via tools to be specified at a later date.

3. Applications submitted to the Commission must include each and every element of the following:

a. Applications must be presented in tandem – a sovereign noble of the land on which both proposed Connection Points rest must be active in the application process and provide to the Commission the full information required in order to evaluate their half of the Fast-Travel Connection.

b. Each proposed Maritime Fast-Travel Connection must include a developed port on each end of the Connection. To be deemed suitable for a Maritime Fast-Travel Connection, each port must meet the following developmental and infrastructural requirements in order to justify the need for, the effect of, and the physical and economic ability to maintain a Maritime Fast-Travel Connection:

i. Population and residential areas large, established, and developed enough to generate sufficient traffic as to require a Connection. Photographic evidence of the breadth of the port’s population must be included in the application, in addition to being inspected in person by the Commission.

ii. Local commerce and industry prominent and expansive enough to financially support a Connection and to provide economic rationale (i.e. international trade, commercial traders, etc.) for the creation of a Connection. Photographic evidence of specific local commerce and industry and its interaction with maritime connections (i.e. oceanic trading) must be included, in addition to being inspected in person by the Commission.

iii. A number of oceangoing vessels large enough to facilitate general oceanic trade and shipping, commercial passenger transport, naval development, and provide an in-lore rationale for the activity of the port and being sufficient high to warrant a Connection. A minimum of four (4) oceangoing vessels must be present in the harbor of each port in addition to the separate vessel(s) forming one end of each Connection. Photographic evidence of two (2) examples of international development must be included in the application, in addition to being inspected in person by the Commission.

iv. Wholly safe and secure alternate forms of travel connecting each port to the Mercurian Empire’s transportation networks. These can include overland connections or nether connections. Photographic evidence of a minimum of one (1) form of travel in addition to the Maritime Fast-Travel Connection that connects each port to the Empire must be included, in addition to being inspected in person by the Commission.

c. The port on either end of each proposed Maritime Fast-Travel Connection must be deemed an international port, visited and employed and influenced by different realms of the Empire, so as to justify the creation of an international Connection:

i. Each port must have been physically influenced or impacted by other realms, influenced by means including but not limited to trade, culture, diplomatic representation, etc. Physical evidence of international development may include but is not limited to: foreign businesses, visible international trade, representation of international Guilds, and diplomatic embassies. A minimum of two (2) international connections must be established in each port in addition to the destination realm of the Connection. Photographic evidence of international development must be included in the application, in addition to being inspected in person by the Commission.

ii. Each port must contain within the number of oceangoing vessels in its harbor (a minimum of four (4) in addition to each separate vessel employed to form a Connection) international vessels, in order to demonstrate that the port is being employed by international vessels on a regular basis. A minimum of two (2) international vessels must be present within the vessels of each port’s harbor, in addition to the destination realm of the Connection. Photographic evidence of two (2) international vessels must be included in the application, in addition to being inspected in person by the Commission.

d. The port on either end of the proposed Maritime Fast-Travel Connection must contain an oceangoing vessel the houses the Connection Point transporting the individual to the other end of the Connection and the paired vessel. Photographic evidence of both vessels, meeting the below requirements, must be included in the application in addition to being inspected in person by the Commission.

i. Each vessel must clearly display its destination port and realm in both written form (via signage) and realm-specific (via banners, flags, use of the realm’s color scheme, etc).

ii. Each vessel may house only one (1) Maritime Fast-Travel Connection and may travel to only one (1) destination – each successive Maritime Fast-Travel Connection will require a separate pair of vessels.

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PostPosted: June 9th, 2016, 12:47 am 
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Duke

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Red=Highlighted
Green=Comments

Quote:
Maritime Fast-Travel Connections

1. A Maritime Fast-Travel Connection shall be defined as: a naval connection, feasible within existing lore and supported by physical infrastructure including but not limited to sufficient naval and harbor facilities, local naval development and activity of the port, international development and naval presence, local development and cultivation of commerce and industry, and alternative methods of transportation and travel to the Travel Point including overland and nether, serviced by a minimum of one (1) pair (2) of naval vessels that transport an individual between the location and another connected location in Hermertia meeting the same requirements.

//You dont have to define that a pair = 2

2. The Commission for Maritime Navigation shall be created as a subsidiary of the Imperial Ministry for Surveyors and Civil Engineers. Is is the stated goal of the Commission to review each and every application for the creation of a new Maritime Fast-Travel Connection prior to sending the application for voting by the Council of the Crowned. The Commission will be chaired by a Chairperson.

a. The Chairperson of the Commission may be appointed as a Deputy Minister at the discretion of the Minister of Surveyors and Civil Engineers. Other individuals may assist in completing the duties of the Commission at the discretion of the Minister for surveyors and Civil Engineers. If no Chairperson exists, the role is automatically assumed by the Minister for Surveyors and Civil Engineers.

b. It is the Chairperson’s responsibility to:

i. Collect and judge each and every application submitted to the Commission and to ensure that each individual application meets the below requirements for the approval and implementation of a Maritime Fast-Travel Point before sending each individual application to the Council of the Crowned for voting.

ii. Physically travel to each end of every proposed Maritime Fast-Travel Connection to confirm that the submitted application is wholly accurate and that the application meets the full requirements for the implementation of a Maritime Fast-Travel Connection.

c. The Chairperson of the Commission for Maritime Navigation will have the responsibility of reviewing each and every application submitted to the Commission, ensuring that the application meets all requirements, and travelling to each end of each proposed Maritime Fast-Travel Connection in order to physically inspect and verify the contents of the application.

//redundant to 2. b.

d. An application meeting with the confidence of the Commission for Maritime Navigation will be sent by the Commission to the Council of the Crowned, where a vote in unison will approve the implementation of the Maritime Fast-Travel Connection and allow the Connection to be implemented via tools to be specified at a later date.

// I think it's implied that when someone goes to judge your harbor that theyre going to vote on it; section not necessary

3. Applications submitted to the Commission must include each and every element of the following:

a. Applications must be presented in tandem – a sovereign noble of the land on which both proposed Connection Points rest must be active in the application process and provide to the Commission the full information required in order to evaluate their half of the Fast-Travel Connection.

//This application process requires both realms on each side to submit an application at the same time. I think that a single application made for the connection would be a far better solution as it would require half the applications be submitted and still requires the same requisites.

b. Each proposed Maritime Fast-Travel Connection must include a developed port on each end of the Connection. To be deemed suitable for a Maritime Fast-Travel Connection, each port must meet the following developmental and infrastructural requirements in order to justify the need for, the effect of, and the physical and economic ability to maintain a Maritime Fast-Travel Connection:

i. Population and residential areas large, established, and developed enough to generate sufficient traffic as to require a Connection. Photographic evidence of the breadth of the port’s population must be included in the application, in addition to being inspected in person by the Commission.

// A lot of this photographic evidence isn't necessary as the Minister can confirm these things on his visit. Only a few photos should be necessary. Perhaps just one of the harbor, one of the land, and one overall.

ii. Local commerce and industry prominent and expansive enough to financially support a Connection and to provide economic rationale (i.e. international trade, commercial traders, etc.) for the creation of a Connection. Photographic evidence of specific local commerce and industry and its interaction with maritime connections (i.e. oceanic trading) must be included, in addition to being inspected in person by the Commission.

iii. A number of oceangoing vessels large enough to facilitate general oceanic trade and shipping, commercial passenger transport, naval development, and provide an in-lore rationale for the activity of the port and being sufficient high to warrant a Connection. A minimum of four (4) oceangoing vessels must be present in the harbor of each port in addition to the separate vessel(s) forming one end of each Connection. [/color] Photographic evidence of two (2) examples of international development must be included in the application, in addition to being inspected in person by the Commission.

// After much discussion with the Mumble, we would like to see the requirements changed to, as a general guideline, (4) 20-35m ships, or (3) 35-50m ships.
//We also discussed this point and decided that the owner of the port may create the building that hosts the international relations, but a person from another realm must fill the interior and show their flag. Also delete, redundant to 3. c. i.

iv. Wholly safe and secure alternate forms of travel connecting each port to the Mercurian Empire’s transportation networks. These can include overland connections or nether connections. Photographic evidence of a minimum of one (1) form of travel in addition to the Maritime Fast-Travel Connection that connects each port to the Empire must be included, in addition to being inspected in person by the Commission.

//change to nether line approved by Ministry of Civil Engineers

c. The port on either end of each proposed Maritime Fast-Travel Connection must be deemed an international port, visited and employed and influenced by different realms of the Empire, so as to justify the creation of an international Connection:

//Redundant to 3. b.

i. Each port must have been physically influenced or impacted by other realms, influenced by means including but not limited to trade, culture, diplomatic representation, etc. Physical evidence of international development may include but is not limited to: foreign businesses, visible international trade, representation of international Guilds, and diplomatic embassies. A minimum of two (2) international connections must be established in each port in addition to the destination realm of the Connection. Photographic evidence of international development must be included in the application, in addition to being inspected in person by the Commission.

ii. Each port must contain within the number of oceangoing vessels in its harbor (a minimum of four (4) in addition to each separate vessel employed to form a Connection) international vessels, in order to demonstrate that the port is being employed by international vessels on a regular basis. A minimum of two (2) international vessels must be present within the vessels of each port’s harbor, in addition to the destination realm of the Connection. Photographic evidence of two (2) international vessels must be included in the application, in addition to being inspected in person by the Commission.

//Redundant to 3. b. iii.

d. The port on either end of the proposed Maritime Fast-Travel Connection must contain an oceangoing vessel the houses the Connection Point transporting the individual to the other end of the Connection and the paired vessel. Photographic evidence of both vessels, meeting the below requirements, must be included in the application in addition to being inspected in person by the Commission.

i. Each vessel must clearly display its destination port and realm in both written form (via signage) and realm-specific (via banners, flags, use of the realm’s color scheme, etc).

ii. Each vessel may house only one (1) Maritime Fast-Travel Connection and may travel to only one (1) destination – each successive Maritime Fast-Travel Connection will require a separate pair of vessels.

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PostPosted: June 9th, 2016, 2:45 am 
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King

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Looks pretty good so far lads.

I like the changes from Aeries to Nicholas' first draft. Excellent Work everyone.

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PostPosted: June 9th, 2016, 3:54 am 
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King

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Updated draft, with Aeries's changes and minor editing for clarity:

Quote:
Maritime Fast-Travel Connections

1. A Maritime Fast-Travel Connection shall be defined as: a naval connection, feasible within existing lore and supported by physical infrastructure including but not limited to sufficient naval and harbor facilities, local naval development and activity of the port, international development and naval presence, local development and cultivation of commerce and industry, and alternative methods of transportation and travel to the Travel Point including overland and nether, serviced by a minimum of one (1) pair of naval vessels that transport an individual between the location and another connected location in Hermertia meeting the same requirements.

2. The Commission for Maritime Navigation shall be created as a subsidiary of the Imperial Ministry for Surveyors and Civil Engineers. Is is the stated goal of the Commission to review each and every application for the creation of a new Maritime Fast-Travel Connection prior to sending the application for voting by the Council of the Crowned. The Commission will be chaired by a Chairperson.

a. The Chairperson of the Commission may be appointed as a Deputy Minister at the discretion of the Minister of Surveyors and Civil Engineers. Other individuals may assist in completing the duties of the Commission at the discretion of the Minister for surveyors and Civil Engineers. If no Chairperson exists, the role is automatically assumed by the Minister for Surveyors and Civil Engineers.

b. It is the Chairperson’s responsibility to:

i. Collect and judge each and every application submitted to the Commission and to ensure that each individual application meets the below requirements for the approval and implementation of a Maritime Fast-Travel Point before sending each individual application to the Council of the Crowned for voting.

ii. Physically travel to each end of every proposed Maritime Fast-Travel Connection to confirm that the submitted application is wholly accurate and that the application meets the full requirements for the implementation of a Maritime Fast-Travel Connection.

c. A successful application reviewed and verified to the satisfaction of the Committee for Maritime Navigation will be passed on to the Council of the Crowned for voting, where it must achieve a unanimous (100%) vote of support.

3. Applications submitted to the Commission must include each and every element of the following:


a. Each application must include a minimum of three (3) examples of photographic evidence: one picture of the port at either end of the connection as well as a map displaying the proposed connection route.

b. Each proposed Maritime Fast-Travel Connection must include a developed port on each end of the Connection. To be deemed suitable for a Maritime Fast-Travel Connection, each port must meet the following developmental and infrastructural requirements in order to justify the need for, the effect of, and the physical and economic ability to maintain a Maritime Fast-Travel Connection:

i. Population and residential areas large, established, and developed enough to generate sufficient traffic as to require a Connection.

ii. Local commerce and industry prominent and expansive enough to financially support a Connection and to provide economic rationale (i.e. international trade, commercial traders, etc.) for the creation of a Connection.

iii. A number of oceangoing vessels large enough to facilitate general oceanic trade and shipping, commercial passenger transport, naval development, and provide an in-lore rationale for the activity of the port and being sufficient high to warrant a Connection. A minimum of either four (4) midsize (20-35 metres in length) oceangoing vessels or three large (35-50 metres in length) oceangoing vessels must be present in the harbor of each port in addition to the separate vessel(s) forming one end of each Connection.

iv. Alternate forms of travel connecting each port to the Mercurian Empire’s transportation networks. These can include overland connections or nether connections. A nether line, if present, must be rated as wholly safe and secure by the Ministry for Surveyors and Civil Engineers.

c. The port on either end of each proposed Maritime Fast-Travel Connection must be deemed an international port, visited and influenced by different realms of the Empire, so as to justify the creation of an international Connection:

i. Each port must have been physically influence or impacted by other realms, including but not limited to trade, culture, diplomatic representation, etc. Physical evidence of international development may include but is not limited to: foreign businesses, visible international trade, representation of international Guilds, and diplomatic embassies. A minimum of two (2) examples of international connections must be established in each port in addition to the destination realm of the Connection.

ii. Each port must contain within the number of oceangoing vessels in its harbor international vessels, in order to demonstrate that the port is being employed by international vessels on a regular basis. A minimum of two (2) international vessels must be present within the vessels of each port’s harbor, in addition to the destination realm of the Connection.


d. The port on either end of the proposed Maritime Fast-Travel Connection must contain an oceangoing vessel the houses the Connection Point transporting the individual to the other end of the Connection and the paired vessel. Photographic evidence of both vessels, meeting the below requirements, must be included in the application in addition to being inspected in person by the Commission.

i. Each vessel must clearly display its destination port and realm in both written form (via signage) and realm-specific (via banners, flags, use of the realm’s color scheme, etc).

ii. Each vessel may house only one (1) Maritime Fast-Travel Connection and may travel to only one (1) destination – each successive Maritime Fast-Travel Connection will require a separate pair of vessels.


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PostPosted: June 9th, 2016, 8:01 pm 
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Duke

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This draft is looking really good!

I had a few comments to make on some sections:

2. c.
Quote:
A successful application reviewed and verified to the satisfaction of the Committee for Maritime Navigation will be passed on to the Council of the Crowned for voting, where it must achieve a unanimous (100%) vote of support.

I think it would be better to change the wording here to make the application into a bill that the Parliament must vote on. My concern was that requiring a unanimous vote from the Council is an even steeper requirement than we have for declaring a realm a County or Duchy. If it were a bill, the requirement would be either a 60% majority from the Council or 50% of the Kings voting in favor plus a bill passed by the House of Dukes. I feel this is both consistent with other laws as they currently stand and is a more reasonable requirement.

3. c. i.
Quote:
Each port must have been physically influence or impacted by other realms, including but not limited to trade, culture, diplomatic representation, etc. Physical evidence of international development may include but is not limited to: foreign businesses, visible international trade, representation of international Guilds, and diplomatic embassies. A minimum of two (2) examples of international connections must be established in each port in addition to the destination realm of the Connection.

I think we should use either "influence" or "presence" should be used instead of "connections" here to avoid confusion with connections created with the plugin.

3. c. ii.
Quote:
Each port must contain within the number of oceangoing vessels in its harbor international vessels, in order to demonstrate that the port is being employed by international vessels on a regular basis. A minimum of two (2) international vessels must be present within the vessels of each port’s harbor, in addition to the destination realm of the Connection.

Would these two international vessels count as "two (2) examples of international connections" as mentioned in 3. c. i. or would they be in addition to those previously stated requirements? If it is the latter, I think the wording should reflect this.

Otherwise, I think this draft is pretty close to what the final bill should look like.

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