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PostPosted: January 3rd, 2017, 7:40 am 
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Duke

Joined: June 1st, 2015, 12:47 am
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In consideration of the concerns raised by the community with regards to this claim, this petition will be withdrawn. Another, with a much smaller claim will be submitted shortly. Thank you to the various community members who provided feedback and suggestions; they will be considered carefully and used to guide future projects within the GRHH.
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The GRHH puts forth a proposal for the following territorial expansion to the Parliament:

Image
Kaine is violet, Casadia is red, Östlaed is green, the current GRHH is yellow, and the new claim is orange.

The GRHH understands the concerns that may come with this claim. First, making a land claim like this may seem out of character for the GRHH, and it is. While many realms have expanded their territories significantly, the GRHH has claimed very little over the course of three cycles and always seeks good reason for any claims it makes. Thus, it is most likely that this claim will be the last one for a great while, as the GRHH will always seek to utilize its current territory before it asks for more.

Second, this land claim meets the borders of Östlaed, which may raise concerns about tensions in some minds. However, the GRHH and Östlaed have discussed together their future plans for expansion and the GRHH will continue to keep this dialogue open to work through any disputes that may arise. In addition, note that borders have often served as sites of cooperation and interaction between players – as seen in places like the Golden Crescent, Amora, and Fortuda – and it is hoped that these new border areas will server this purpose and introduce new opportunities for the GRHH to work on projects with other realms.

Image
A map comparing the current GRHH with nearby realms.

Third, this land claim is extensive, more than doubling the land area of the GRHH. Examining the map above, one can see that even though only part of Östlead and Casadia are shown, these fractions still surpass the whole of the GRHH. This land claim would simply bring the GRHH’s scale into one comparable to its neighbors. Also, other realms, such as Wychwood, have more than doubled their territorial size without much fuss. Finally, when one looks at the pace of expansion of other realms, even with this claim the GRHH would still be slower to claim new land than most others.

With these concerns addressed, the question arises: why does the GRHH desire this land? The most apparent reason is the growth within the GRHH. Within the past ten mercannums, Anthi Laguna has doubled in size, a road connecting it to Duras has been constructed, the port of Petra Nova was founded and quickly grew to over fifty buildings, and to the east the fishing villages of Wadidiz and Wadidu have expanded with new construction as more Gathered flock to the south. As a result, the GRHH is one of the smallest and densest Grand Duchies in the Empire. The density and pace of this development has brought to the attention of the Chairman and the government of the GRHH the need for more land and resources to allow this growth to continue. If not, it will soon be very difficult to find new areas to found new settlements without them being within sight of an existing one. This new claim amply provides for these needs.

In expanding its claim, the GRHH also seeks to secure its future as a realm. As it stands, there is hardly any room for new vassals to join the GRHH and thrive if they wish to. This claim will give the GRHH a greater number and variety of biomes for newcomers, allowing them more choices and the ability to expand over time, especially if they choose to remain in the GRHH after achieving the rank of Count. In addition, with the rapid expansion of Östlaed in the north and the gradual growth of Casadia in the south, if this land were not claimed by the GRHH it might soon become part of one or both of these realms, cutting the GRHH off from any possibility of expanding its territory, relegating it to its current small size, and stifling development while other realms could continue to grow. While the GRHH will probably not make any new land claims for some time, the nation would like to leave its options open for the future.

Many thanks for reading and considering this petition. It is hoped that any concerns that this claim is unusual, dangerous, or excessive have been addressed and that the importance of this claim to the future development and relevance of the GRHH has been seen. If there are any questions that need to be answered or worries to be relieved, I will seek to respond as best I can. I now leave this decision in the hands of the community.

_________________
Ulrik Gunnarson
Duke of the Gathered Races of Hermertia Homeland (GRHH)
The Chairman of the GRHH Co.


Last edited by The Chairman on January 4th, 2017, 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: January 3rd, 2017, 3:34 pm 
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King

Joined: May 30th, 2015, 10:17 am
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Persuasive. Given your honesty and truthful statementsstatement regarding lack of land claims in the past, and given your venerable status in our cadre of honoured players, I see no reason to deny this as long as both the Casadians and the Östrons are ok with this.

This current land claim will have to be filled as much as possible under new guidelines in order to expand further as you would expect!

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PostPosted: January 3rd, 2017, 3:48 pm 
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Duke

Joined: May 30th, 2015, 6:01 pm
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Location: Michigan, USA
This expansion is in line with established expansion agreements between the GRHH and Casadia.

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PostPosted: January 3rd, 2017, 5:48 pm 
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Joined: April 28th, 2016, 6:15 pm
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Location: California
This actually includes a bit of land in a spruce biome I've claimed near the extreme hills on the eastern side. Anything north of that extreme hills biome that is spruce I claimed in my last expansion. Easy to redraw and I'm sure it's just a small mistake.

The borders other than that aren't an issue, exact border has long been marked out in the mega taiga with lightposts and been posted on maps in various places.

I will be opposing this not from a border issue, as Chairman and I loosely talked about this months ago. Instead, I will opposing it as I would any other expansion that I feel is unduly large. Claiming an area of this size isn't acceptable from anyone in these days. Arguments for new vassals (which frankly, Chairman isn't active enough during most of the year to have), or securing enough land for ages (seriously, if you're worried about me expanding into your area, seek to formalize some future plans. I don't want to cut you off!), or whatever else shouldn't overrule some basic facts.

This is by far the largest land claim conducted other than the establishment of duchies from Dukes whom were vassals. It's enough to build 2-4 duchies worth of builds, according to modern standards.

With regard to some place like Wychwood, this claim is more than double Wychwood's size. It's not like you had just one duchy, and a very small duchy at that beforehand.

What's the issue with claiming just a single duchies worth? Not to mention this is almost entirely one biome, and totally ignores two closer biomes. It's obviously just a claim done out of fear I'm going to violate a vocal agreement Chairman and I made, which I can assure him at this time I had no intention of doing.

My proposal (which I'd make to any Duke claiming this amount of land) is that you claim a smaller bit (maybe 1/3 of this) of land first - if a claim is even warranted at all. If you get new vassals, great, claim more land if you're feeling tight! If you want to have an agreement set in stone for expansion, I'm also willing to do that with you when I'm back from Phoenix.

Obviously my opposition means little in the current land claims system, which is why I'm formally asking the Kings to start a vote against this land claim unless it is revised to be much smaller.

I hope this does not harm the relations we've been working on together lately, and do look forward to a grand co-build town somewhere on our borders in the future!

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PostPosted: January 3rd, 2017, 6:12 pm 
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King

Joined: May 30th, 2015, 10:17 am
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With the modern standards were attempting to push forward and which my sun fried head (it's seriously hot and I was mega dehydrated yesterday, still burst today) I would be happy to encourage growth and safeguard future expansions and not have any box ins. Reducing the size of the claim and siging a land claim accord with your neighbours would be the best way to proceed. I would be very interested In co building there. Another golden crescent style area would be awesome.

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PostPosted: January 3rd, 2017, 6:17 pm 
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Duke

Joined: August 9th, 2015, 12:19 am
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Location: United Kingdom
While I sympathise with The GRRH's need to expand and secure land for future use, I agree with Mark that the overall size is much too large for a single claim.

As is suggested each time claims of this nature arise, I would suggest making claim to a smaller area, less than half, and properly developing this until expanding further.

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PostPosted: January 3rd, 2017, 6:33 pm 
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King

Joined: May 30th, 2015, 5:52 pm
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At the moment, I would like to seek a bit more context here before taking further steps in regards to this claim.

Let me say unequivocally that my current hesitation to support this claim has nothing to do with relations between other realms nearby; the amendment to the Codex that allows members of the Council to call a claim for scrutiny specify that this must be done only if it is felt that the claim is "an overextension" of the realm in question. At the present moment, taking into account several factors, I do feel that this claim may be an overextension of the GRHH due to internal factors within the realm. The purpose of Kings scrutinising claims is not to ensure that no neighbor has a problem with it; that being said, as leader of a close neighbor and a friend to both Ostlaed and the GRHH, I am certainly supportive of a solid border agreement and am happy to help in any way I can going forward.

My rationale for calling the claim under scrutiny, though, stems solely from the fact that I believe it might be an overextension. The fact that it more than doubles the current area of the GRHH is one factor that I do wonder about; you make specific reference to that, but comparisons such as Wychwood's expansion are not exactly comparable given differences in size and scale as well as background. You mention internal development in existing land, one of teh key requirements for a successful claim - I am, however, having some trouble fully appreciating the extent of your work so far. I would much appreciate it if you might be able to provide us with a county map of the GRHH, showing exactly how the current lands are being utilized. The point about rooms for expansion for vassals is certainly a valid one, but this is an issue that has been encountered many times in the past by other realms - at this point, it is common for realms to seek expansion for vassals once they have demonstrated that the vassal will suitably fill that area (see: Pyrencia, Wysteria, Ostlaed, etc.). There would doubtless be much less trepidation surrounding your claim if the area was smaller; there is no barrier to expanding more later once that area has been properly utilized; this is the standard approach, after all. I appreciate your concerns about limitations on future expansion what with neighbors in the area; it does seem that Mark is quite willing to work on a permanent agreement, so I would perhaps suggest talking to ally any concerns going forward.

Now, none of this is to discourage you sir; I am not calling for a vote today. But I would like to ask you to prove me wrong in my current hesitations; show that the GRHH truly deserves this claim based on the current work done. As said above, a close-up, detailed county and duchy map of the GRHH would be a great supporting document; I am also around for a tour if needed. I'm not voting against this claim at this point, but I do feel that there are some concerns that must be resolved before a claim like this might go forward.

Thanks.

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PostPosted: January 3rd, 2017, 6:42 pm 
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Screenshots and maps of each settlement would help as well.

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PostPosted: January 3rd, 2017, 9:52 pm 
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King

Joined: June 4th, 2015, 12:02 am
Posts: 259
After thought and discussion, with a trip to the eastern frontier of the GRRH, I must reject this expansion entirely. On your map, you show that there is two towns east of Anthi Laguna, Wadidu and Wadidiz. However when visiting them, they can barely be considered hamlets.

Wadidu
Image

Wadidiz
Image

Neither are connected to the rest of your realm via the nether or the overworld, let alone the fact they are so tiny, and they are isolated by tons of land between them. I can't fathom how you need more land to expand, when you have not filled out the land you do have at all.

http://hermertia.com/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=1506

The bill I have put forward regarding the claim is above.

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PostPosted: January 4th, 2017, 3:07 am 
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Duke

Joined: June 1st, 2015, 12:47 am
Posts: 700
A new proposal for consideration has been made here. (click this link)

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Ulrik Gunnarson
Duke of the Gathered Races of Hermertia Homeland (GRHH)
The Chairman of the GRHH Co.


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