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| On Divinity, Ancient Rite, Organic Law, and the Constitution http://hermertia.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=752 |
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| Author: | The Chairman [ July 7th, 2016, 5:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: On Divinity, Ancient Rite, Organic Law, and the Constitu |
Mark Stefan wrote: In respecting that, what it seems must happen is that the Council must discuss how to reintegrate - meaning votes must take place to integrate or perhaps remove sections of this old and revered document to adjust for the current Golden Age of the Empire we are surely entering. I agree. Our strategy for re-incorporation of these ideals should be more nuanced than "keep the old, except where it conflicts with the new" and is best served by putting sections to a vote. I propose this: we have standard bills in the Parliament that ask whether a section should be included. If the bill fails to pass, we move on to an amendment process where we either change the wording of the section or remove it via amendment. If, prior to this process, new language already passed with enough votes to have been made an amendment, then it automatically is incorporated into the Indoles Carta as an amendment upon failure of a bill that would have incorporated old language. Thoughts? |
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| Author: | Joren [ July 7th, 2016, 5:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: On Divinity, Ancient Rite, Organic Law, and the Constitu |
The Chairman wrote: Mark Stefan wrote: In respecting that, what it seems must happen is that the Council must discuss how to reintegrate - meaning votes must take place to integrate or perhaps remove sections of this old and revered document to adjust for the current Golden Age of the Empire we are surely entering. I agree. Our strategy for re-incorporation of these ideals should be more nuanced than "keep the old, except where it conflicts with the new" and is best served by putting sections to a vote. I propose this: we have standard bills in the Parliament that ask whether a section should be included. If the bill fails to pass, we move on to an amendment process where we either change the wording of the section or remove it via amendment. If, prior to this process, new language already passed with enough votes to have been made an amendment, then it automatically is incorporated into the Indoles Carta as an amendment upon failure of a bill that would have incorporated old language. Thoughts? I disagree. Most of the document has still applied, despite the absence of the physical document, over the past year or so. While there are certain new bills that we have passed, I don't think that the whole document need be up for potential revision. A constitution should be amended when the need arises, but, in my opinion, should not be entirely reworked unless need be. If there are issues that people see while going back through it, I agree that they should be debated. |
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| Author: | The Chairman [ July 7th, 2016, 5:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: On Divinity, Ancient Rite, Organic Law, and the Constitu |
Perhaps we should only discuss the parts that conflict with current practices (e.g., how ministers are appointed, appointing members of the Council of the Crowned, vote requirements for bills, etc.)? |
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| Author: | Cerdic Accynnafon [ July 7th, 2016, 5:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: On Divinity, Ancient Rite, Organic Law, and the Constitu |
The Chairman wrote: Perhaps we should only discuss the parts that conflict with current practices (e.g., how ministers are appointed, appointing members of the Council of the Crowned, vote requirements for bills, etc.)? If anyone has an issue with anything else, there's nothing stopping Dukes and Kings from presenting changes anyways. |
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| Author: | Joren [ July 7th, 2016, 5:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: On Divinity, Ancient Rite, Organic Law, and the Constitu |
Mark Stefan wrote: The Chairman wrote: Perhaps we should only discuss the parts that conflict with current practices (e.g., how ministers are appointed, appointing members of the Council of the Crowned, vote requirements for bills, etc.)? If anyone has an issue with anything else, there's nothing stopping Dukes and Kings from presenting changes anyways. Exactly. Otherwise we would be doing a whole lot of voting, and some of the more important aspects of the constitution might be looked over due to "voting fatigue," so to speak. I think the problem areas are the only ones that need true debate and perhaps voting. |
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| Author: | The Regent [ July 7th, 2016, 5:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: On Divinity, Ancient Rite, Organic Law, and the Constitu |
I tend to agree fully to Arjen, but then again, that is my prescribed duty, as his prescription aligns with traditional legal interpretations. |
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| Author: | Cerdic Accynnafon [ July 7th, 2016, 5:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: On Divinity, Ancient Rite, Organic Law, and the Constitu |
The Regent wrote: I tend to agree fully to Arjen, but then again, that is my prescribed duty, as his prescription aligns with traditional legal interpretations. Yeah I do agree that we should integrate fully, and tackle anything we disagree with in this new era via our normal legal channels. |
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| Author: | Jakon [ July 7th, 2016, 8:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: On Divinity, Ancient Rite, Organic Law, and the Constitu |
The Regent wrote: VI. Contractual Law There is no international status, recognition or legal protection of contractual law. This is left to bilateral treaties or national/county law. My only gripe with the Indoles Carta is the gray area of Contractual Law. There seems to be a lot of ambiguity around this portion. What if there is a contractual dispute between two parties in the same nation/county, but there are no established contractual laws? If one party ranks higher than another and is able to create contractual laws in their nation/county, would it be okay for the higher ranking party to create laws in his/her favor in order to "win" the dispute? If there is no international recoginition over contractual law, then this should be legal, despite the clearly unfair circumstances. Also what happens if the contents of a contract defies certain parts of the Indoles Carta? Does that set precedent for international recognition? I feel like this section needs to be a bit more specific. Thoughts? |
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| Author: | The Chairman [ July 7th, 2016, 9:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: On Divinity, Ancient Rite, Organic Law, and the Constitu |
I agree. Contracts can be quite useful and not having a clearly defined legal method for enforcing them essentially makes them unavailable to us. |
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| Author: | The Regent [ July 7th, 2016, 9:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: On Divinity, Ancient Rite, Organic Law, and the Constitu |
This issue has a lot of history. North and South Zhuque was split in two from this. A little context: A newcomer signed a contract without knowing the implication, being made a permanent vassal/in servitude to Talin perpetually. Talin argued the contract needed to be recognized internationally, and his opposer argued it shouldn't be valid considering he was taken advantage of. The international community ultimately decided to not recognize bilateral disputes. (lore off, in a real world analogy, international contract law does not exist. at all.) It's domestically handled. You take a risk signing international contracts, which are otherwise only binding by bonds, agreements, treaties, diplomacy, and relations.. I'm not so convinced the community needs to start policing, and ultimately, getting involved in the punishment and sentencing of domestic contract disputes. That's each nation's perogative, historically... Of course, the community can change their mind and pass a bill establishing guidelines for international contract law to be recognized, but if repeats of the zhuque crisis come up, don't be surprised if it becomes an "i told you so" moment. We even have a modern example. No one interfered in the dispute between Skeleton and Isaac, which was a domestic issue with some contract arguments as well. Allies are welcome to join in and defend their allies in bilateral disputes as the law stands, but that does not mean the international community is compelled to. Again, and I could be wrong here, but as it stands, there is, and has been no law passed to enforce domestic or bilateral contracts, as that's a matter of sovereignty and diplomacy. You folks can of course add such a law, but that's what would be required, legally speaking. |
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