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PostPosted: September 10th, 2016, 6:50 pm 
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King

Joined: May 30th, 2015, 1:05 am
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Scrios IV wrote:
I vote against as well. Nic did a really good job at formalizing definitely what we need for our history. However, I do not think some of the definition (i.e. historical origins and such) need to be formalized as legislation. Typically you would only get what the title is without the rest of the detail. The powers and authorities are then built within the legislation as we have done already (i.e. for ascension, parliamentary voting, etc).

Also, just noticed this verbiage and want to see what others think. Is it the emperor that crowns the Kings/Queens or is it the Council of the Crowned? Isn't the Emperors role more ceremonial as what is stated in the latter part of the Emperor definition?


I agree that this document does an incredible job of describing the history and development of each rank. I wonder though, if this is to be a law, does it need to include the history of each title or just a description of duties?

Example: For count, would it make more sense to cut the language down to something along the lines of

"Holders and protectors of local plots of land recognized by the Empire as Counties are known as Counts. It is the duty of counts to be the protectors of these local communities. Counties may include multiple smaller holdings and settlements within one jurisdiction. Counts may oversee multiple Counties (sometimes adopting the term, equivalent in rank and privilege, of Grand County), but they must choose a primary title when they do so. Counts may be lords of either independent holdings (with the Council of the Crowned as their liege) or holdings inside of an established realm under a Duke or King."

This simplifies the language a bit and strictly describes a count and its duties without worrying about its historical roots. I believe, perhaps, that is best suited for lore and the future restored library.

Of course, this is just one lowly opinion and I would be interested to hear other's take on it.

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PostPosted: September 10th, 2016, 7:39 pm 
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King

Joined: May 30th, 2015, 5:52 pm
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Scrios IV wrote:
I do not think some of the definition (i.e. historical origins and such) need to be formalized as legislation. Typically you would only get what the title is without the rest of the detail. The powers and authorities are then built within the legislation as we have done already (i.e. for ascension, parliamentary voting, etc).


King Arjen IV wrote:
I wonder though, if this is to be a law, does it need to include the history of each title or just a description of duties? ... This simplifies the language a bit and strictly describes a count and its duties without worrying about its historical roots.


------

This is, in fact, exactly what I first conceived when we went about modernizing this Act, and it is likely what would be on the table for ratification today but for a number of compromises worked out to satisfy all those who were active during the redrafting. Myself and others firmly believed - and still do - that aspects of these ranks must still be legally defined: details such as size and composition of regions these ranks preside over, vassalage relationships, and the legal terms recognised by the Empire are not defined elsewhere in the Carta. Accordingly, I proposed a version that cut out the lore and history of these terms and left us with only the pared down legal definitions - reasoning, as you are now, that the history and lore behind these terms could be compiled neatly in the library. And example of the pared down legal language was the draft for the Emperor section:

Nicholas II wrote:
The Emperor or Empress of the Mercurian Empire is the representative of the divinity of the Council of the Crowned, elected from within the ranks of the Council and equal in rights and abilities to each of the sitting members of the latter. In this role, the Emperor/Empress holds the responsibility of performing tasks on behalf of the Council of the Crowned, including but not limited to the crowning of newly ascended Kings/Queens to the Council and the delivering of announcements on behalf of the Council. 

The Emperor/Empress also holds the responsibility of acting as sociocultural ambassador for the Empire, representing the diversity and community of the Empire and fostering community ties and development. In this role, the Emperor/Empress holds the responsibility of representing the community in specific instances, including but not limited to officiating cultural events such as the Imperial Games, introducing communal initiatives and lore events, and travelling the Empire to foster development and cooperation.


------

Now, this draft that covering just the legal definitions was met with approval by some, but ran into a bump when the opinion arose - voiced prominently though not exclusively by Regent - that we should not forget the history of these terms and the changing philosophies that led to their creation and evolution.

The Regent wrote:
I am against the stripping of the language for the emperor. This is my appeal, as a defender of our history and traditions.


I must stress, as I did very clearly during the drafting, that we here in Hermertia must never hound individuals for their opinions; I take enormous pride in our community for being a boiling pot of diverse opinions that can always come together to compromise for the good of the community. Recognising that there was a greater split in opinions here than had first appeared, I committed to resolving the issue. A group including Sam, Atryl, Mark, Myron, and myself examined ways by which we might be able to strike a balance between clear - and very much needed - legal definitions and retaining a respect for the history of our ranks, and we came up with a draft that pared down the history while using it to complement and provide background to the legal terms, in essence rooting the legal definitions in the power of a deep and rich history:

Nicholas II wrote:
From the first days of the Mercurian Empire and the rise of nations across the lands of Hermertia, the preservation of truth, objectivity, and the values of the Empire has been the task of an Emperor or Empress. A representative of the divinity of the Mercurian Empire and the Council of the Crowned, the Emperor is tasked with the eternal responsibility of preserving the spirit of the Empire; ensuring the continuation of the Empire while holding a sacred trust as a connection to its historic values and guiding philosophies.

Elected from within the ranks of the Council and equal in rights and abilities to each of the sitting members of the latter, the Emperor/Empress holds the responsibility of performing tasks as a representative of the Council of the Crowned, including but not limited to the crowning of newly ascended Kings/Queens to the Council and the delivering of announcements on behalf of the Council. A timeless representative of the guiding collaborative philosophy of the Empire, the Emperor/Empress has the sacred duty of representing and encouraging the diversity and community of the Empire and of fostering communal ties and development; in this role, the Emperor/Empress holds the responsibility of representing the community in specific instances, including but not limited to officiating cultural events such as the Imperial Games, introducing communal initiatives and events, and travelling the Empire to foster international development and cooperation.


------

I presented the draft to the community, and was immediately encouraged by a clear endorsement from Minerva:

The Regent wrote:
Let it be known Minerva is in deep gratitude to the patience and genuine passion for the spirit of the Empire showcased by all on this item. These edits receive strong Minervan endorsement.


Further rationale on my part for the Act's necessity, which I'll quote here for ease of access:

Nicholas II wrote:
- I am very much sympathetic to the argument that we shouldn't 'clutter' our laws with a tonnage of lore - this is why we don't legislate, say, the process by which the mysterious Pyrencian blood works. However, I do believe we could and should safely allow this; while the Act of Definitions does include some lore, particularly concerning the origins of the ranks, it also includes valuable legal definitions not available elsewhere in our laws: the size and spread of lands typically overseen by those of different ranks, the legal recognition of the rank 'terms' as well as the option for local terms, the general responsibilities entrusted to those of specific ranks, etc. This Act contains more than enough legal language - needed language, as the above-mentioned definitions are not present elsewhere in our laws - to justify its inclusion in our laws.

- I do think we need to remember that we are at least in part reincorporating these laws so as to make them much clearer, much more in line with our community, and, crucially, much more user-accessible, particularly to newcomers. Newcomers and applicants looking to learn about our world won't be privy to the years of evolving lore that created the legal ranks of today, nor will they know exactly where to look in a new library for the history of these ranks and the duties of those that hold them. No, a newcomer hoping to get a feel of our legal structure might well begin by reading their way through our laws; when they see the powers and duties of ranks such as 'Count' and 'Duke', they will look for definitions of these ranks that include responsibilities, typical size of holdings, position within the rank hierarchy, and perhaps the origin of these ranks - this Act should be included and easily accessible within our laws in order to provide them and all others with that formal, legal, reference.


received endorsements from multiple members of the Council:

Samyrrah Almandine wrote:
I agree with Nicholas there. Well said


Emperor Myron wrote:
I also agree with Nicholas


------

The topic has now been open since August 30th, with no new objections; as there were no new comments from any members of the Council who have voiced their objections here, it was understandably assumed that there were no major points of contention. Finally, the bill passed the House of Dukes with flying Colours, indicating general community encouragement.

Honestly, I myself am just a bit puzzled by the renewed surge of objections to this Act, particularly after it

a) underwent substantial revisions from it's original, pared-down legal version (which a number of Kings now seem to prefer) in the spirit of reaching a compromise,

b) received an endorsement of the compromise, and

c) went for over a week with no new comments or objections.

We'll work towards getting this Act passed in such a manner that the majority of the Council can feel comfortable casting their support for it. But for such a minor yet such a necessary set of legal definitions, and for all the work done so far to ensure it meets with approval, I hope my thoughts here illustrate why I'm surprised this can't seem to be ratified in its current form.

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PostPosted: September 11th, 2016, 2:10 am 
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King

Joined: May 31st, 2015, 3:32 am
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Yes you are right for the most part Nic. I must first apologize for my delayed response as I have not had a chance to be on my computer much due to work prep (audit happening this week). For the most part it contains the necessary information that we would need but I feel that it is a bit too lorified (sp?) to be considered "legal" language that would be appropriate for our legislation. That is all I was trying to illustrate and will write a few examples of what I mean shortly.

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PostPosted: September 11th, 2016, 2:58 am 
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King

Joined: May 31st, 2015, 3:32 am
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I will be re-posting a suggested version just what I mean. Not too much changes to be honest, it is mostly all pretty good language.

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