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PostPosted: December 30th, 2016, 2:26 am 
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Mark Accynnafon wrote:
If the punishment is within that short of a time frame, I'd hardly think that is a punishment worth overturning. I don't think we have a tradition of cruel/unfair punishments as is, but come on - a month long punishment of sorts, if you are found guilty of something we have a criminal code entry for is hardly something that might be deemed unfair.


Well what application does the appeals process then serve? If it's for the reduction of long term sentences it will never be used successfully because of the large majority in the house/council required (as extending your argument that if there is a violation of the criminal code that results in a severe sentence it probably wouldn't be unfair) and if it reduces minor sentences then the minimum time until after the sentence will also negate it's effectiveness.

For me, it seems that this proposed appeals process doesn't serve any reasonable purpose. An appeals process that could be used to develop better judgements and precedents through appeals of verdicts is better.


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PostPosted: December 30th, 2016, 2:42 am 
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Caesar wrote:
Mark Accynnafon wrote:
If the punishment is within that short of a time frame, I'd hardly think that is a punishment worth overturning. I don't think we have a tradition of cruel/unfair punishments as is, but come on - a month long punishment of sorts, if you are found guilty of something we have a criminal code entry for is hardly something that might be deemed unfair.


Well what application does the appeals process then serve? If it's for the reduction of long term sentences it will never be used successfully because of the large majority in the house/council required (as extending your argument that if there is a violation of the criminal code that results in a severe sentence it probably wouldn't be unfair) and if it reduces minor sentences then the minimum time until after the sentence will also negate it's effectiveness.

For me, it seems that this proposed appeals process doesn't serve any reasonable purpose. An appeals process that could be used to develop better judgements and precedents through appeals of verdicts is better.


It serves the purpose of letting the wider community have input should a trial occur and a sentence is handed down via a small jury or the justice minister alone ( after all, the minister does have that power in theory). It is intended to be rarely used, as we've never really had a case of an unfair punishment, but we should have one and many of the active players on the server have been discussing this on discord recently.

Verdicts can already be appealed should new evidence come to light, as outlined in the Indoles Carta of Rights and Freedoms, Section IV under Legal Rights.

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PostPosted: December 30th, 2016, 1:04 pm 
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Mark Accynnafon wrote:
It serves the purpose of letting the wider community have input should a trial occur and a sentence is handed down via a small jury or the justice minister alone ( after all, the minister does have that power in theory). It is intended to be rarely used, as we've never really had a case of an unfair punishment, but we should have one and many of the active players on the server have been discussing this on discord recently.

Verdicts can already be appealed should new evidence come to light, as outlined in the Indoles Carta of Rights and Freedoms, Section IV under Legal Rights.


Who could stomach missing such a great opportunity to refine and develop a more just legal system to provide a niche possible check on circumstances where an excessive punishment was given out in an overreach of power not reflective of the wider communities views, providing the punishment is longer than a month and thus reflects a serious crime however, a crime not serious enough to warrant a formal trial with a large jury. Bearing in mind the minister of justice is elected it can reasonably be assumed that the elected party would show good judgement as to when a crime is serious enough to possibly warrant a serious sentence it will also be serious enough to warrant a proper trial. It seems to me this application is so specialized and niche it will serve no purpose, rather than a very reasonable purpose of allowing for better judgments and a more just system.

The appealing of verdicts in light on new evidence doesn't currently provide a process to appeal verdicts should a party feel an incorrect verdict has been reached, it allows for corrections of verdicts if there is new information - this is thus assuming a verdict can never be incorrect, that the legal process is infallible if all relevant evidence is present, this doesn't make sense as people make mistakes.


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PostPosted: December 30th, 2016, 5:36 pm 
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Caesar wrote:
Mark Accynnafon wrote:
It serves the purpose of letting the wider community have input should a trial occur and a sentence is handed down via a small jury or the justice minister alone ( after all, the minister does have that power in theory). It is intended to be rarely used, as we've never really had a case of an unfair punishment, but we should have one and many of the active players on the server have been discussing this on discord recently.

Verdicts can already be appealed should new evidence come to light, as outlined in the Indoles Carta of Rights and Freedoms, Section IV under Legal Rights.


Who could stomach missing such a great opportunity to refine and develop a more just legal system to provide a niche possible check on circumstances where an excessive punishment was given out in an overreach of power not reflective of the wider communities views, providing the punishment is longer than a month and thus reflects a serious crime however, a crime not serious enough to warrant a formal trial with a large jury. Bearing in mind the minister of justice is elected it can reasonably be assumed that the elected party would show good judgement as to when a crime is serious enough to possibly warrant a serious sentence it will also be serious enough to warrant a proper trial. It seems to me this application is so specialized and niche it will serve no purpose, rather than a very reasonable purpose of allowing for better judgments and a more just system.

The appealing of verdicts in light on new evidence doesn't currently provide a process to appeal verdicts should a party feel an incorrect verdict has been reached, it allows for corrections of verdicts if there is new information - this is thus assuming a verdict can never be incorrect, that the legal process is infallible if all relevant evidence is present, this doesn't make sense as people make mistakes.


I think you forget that this is a server and community where we know if someone is guilty of griefing and for the most part on theft. Soon with core protect we will know on the later. With regard to other things like do not be a dink, if a jury of the community finds someone guilty, then there is no reason to appeal that unless new evidence comes to surface. If it's a potentially controversial decision, I think we can have faith in the community and the kings to use our already improved order of trial to guarantee a fair trial. Our last two trials were a huge improvement in fairness and legal process.

You're raising concerns that either don't apply or you aren't presenting alternative solutions. I've yet to hear of any verdict or sentence that was considered controversial by the majority of the community under the current legal system.

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Runner Up of the Glas Claddach Boat Building Competition
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PostPosted: January 5th, 2017, 6:06 pm 
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Bill for Changes to the Indoles Carta regarding a Sentencing Appeals Process

This is a bill to amend the Indoles Carta, thus, it must receive support from both a clear majority (60%) of active sitting members of the Council of the Crowned and a simple majority (50% + 1) from active sitting members of the House of Dukes.

This section will be added to the Indoles Carta under section IV, after Deliberation and Adjudication of Trials but before Option for Third-Party Mediation.

Appealing a Sentence

Those convicted of crimes against the Mercurian Empire or are entitled to the right to appeal the sentence handed down to them from a criminal trial. The individual making the appeal may submit their appeal to the Judicial Court after one mercannum (one month) has passed from the delivery of a sentence. Upon delivery of their appeal, the Council of the Crowned and the House of Dukes may consider the appeal with a vote to overturn the sentence. For this appeal to succeed, a large majority (75%) of active sitting members of the Council of the Crowned and a large majority (75%) of active sitting members of the House of Dukes must record a vote in favor of the appeal.

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Runner Up of the Glas Claddach Boat Building Competition
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PostPosted: January 5th, 2017, 8:40 pm 
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This discussion has moved to here: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=1515

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