Nothing there I dont like or can think to add. Let's see what others think. Thanks for this Mark.

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Petra Ravnikaar of The Veil

Thanks, I really do want more input here! This is a pretty major thing.

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Ealdorman Cerdic Beoden Accynnafon of Östlond
Runner Up of the Glas Claddach Boat Building Competition
Minister of Justice

This looks good, I have nothing to add.

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King Tiber Elenvar, third of his name.
Lord of New Isilioth
Lord of Elenya
Blood of the Ancient Kingdom of Isilioth
Grandmaster of the Drachenfeuer Order.

Gosh, I'm so sorry Mark; somehow I keep forgetting to post my thoughts on this. I like most of it, but do have a couple points I'd like to articulate - I'll reply in more detail later this evening after I get off duty. Many thanks.

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Wysterian Labourer's Council
Currently Holding Stewardship of Wysteria
Minister for Applications and Settlement
Forums Administrator

I admit I was not initially on board with this idea, but I've certainly come around - in the end I think our generally liberal server ethic tends to favour a system where expansion is not restricted by default, yet where (here following our long traditions of a powerful rule of law) a clearly-defined and communally-legitimised legal mechanism exists to scrutinise and potentially limit expansion where and when deemed appropriate.

So yes, I think that this is what will more or less end up becoming law - and many thanks to Mark for taking the point on this and writing up a great Act here. Accordingly, I'll just take a moment and highlight a couple of areas I have questions about.

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Land Claims Act

Definition of a County

A county can vary widely in size and biome composition. The definition of a county is interpreted on a case by case basis.

To be honest, I'm not fully sure we need this definition in here; the Act deals with claims specifically, and, while most claims are county-sized, not all are.

Process for Making a Land Claim

Nobles of the Mercurian Empire may at any time make a claim for land to add to their realm in the form of a letter (post) to the Imperial Court.

[ I think that perhaps the wording here could be unintentionally vague - not that anyone would likely misinterpret it this way, but the present wording would indicate that any noble could make a claim; this would mean that, say, a Count under a Duke could make a claim, whereas in reality it is always the ruler of the realm/highest legal authority (i.e. the Duke in this case) that makes a land claim on behalf of their vassals. Also, the wording 'land to add to their realm' does not specify that the land must be not currently owned by another realm and must be currently unclaimed.

I might perhaps suggest something along the lines of:

The highest legal authority of a realm recognised under the Council of the Crowned may at any time submit a claim for the addition of lands, currently recognised as belonging to no entity under the Council of the Crowned, to their realm. This may be formally requested in the form of a letter (post) to the Imperial Court.

This language is used in other areas and keeps things somewhat consistent. Just a thought. ]

The following items must be presented with a claim for lands to the Imperial Court so as to justify the claim:

* A map of both the immediate claimed area and in context with current regional and/or imperial maps
* Evidence that lands currently claimed are being used to an extent to justify the claim
* Statement of intent and purpose for the lands claimed

Approval of a Land Claim

Once a Claim has been made in the Imperial Court, the claim is open to comments from all members of the Mercurian Empire. Individuals may make comments and ask questions concerning the claim during the week following the claim being filed.

During this week-long period, any active sitting member of the Council of the Crowned reserves the right to subject the claim to a vote by the Council for any reason. If a majority (50% + 1) of active sitting members of the Council record a vote against the claim, the claim has failed and may not be acted upon by the claimant. If a vote does not receive this majority, the claim passes the vote.

[ Just a slight proposed clarification to make the language a bit clearer. Just a thought. ]

Once the week-long period has elapsed, the claim may no longer be challenged in the Imperial Parliament.

Land Claim Size

There is no legal restriction to lands that may be claimed. However, reviewers are instructed to consider items such as rank, current development of lands including population, number of settlements and infrastructure, number and contributions of vassals residing under the claimant, proximity to other claims, and justifications provided for the claim.


[ Just a thought on perhaps a slightly clearer list. ]

Claims War

A noble of the Mercurian Empire may declare war on the realm making a Land Claim during or after the initial claim process. Terms should be agreed upon before the war officially begins. If there is no agreement even after the war is over, a judicial hearing shall decide the fate of the land claim.

Just personally, I find it a bit odd that we're explicitly allowing war. Don't get me wrong, I do believe claims wars should be possible, and I definitely think they should be organic in origin - which is why I'm not sure if we want to lay out terms for how a claims war should happen. Hmm. Thoughts?

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Wysterian Labourer's Council
Currently Holding Stewardship of Wysteria
Minister for Applications and Settlement
Forums Administrator

Claiming land certainly isn't unrestricted. There exists a strong tradition of not letting people expand without justification, however it wasn't necessarily written down.



My idea for stating this was a bit more clear late last night in my mind when I wrote it. I think I'd like to rewrite what this refers to - perhaps as part of the section mentioning Land Claim sizes.



That's fine, it really says the same thing but takes twice as long to say it. However, considering how these things go, it is likely better to specify that land claims can only be made BY the leader of an independent realm.



Sounds good.



That's a bit more inline with the language of other Acts/the Carts. Good stuff.





What would your thoughts be on removing the section mentioned above on county definition and integrating it this section, while also mentioning something about claims can range from 1-3 counties on average?




Well, we do need something clear here. Our current laws don't give anyone the power to settle something like this unless they either agree on the terms before the war starts, or the Council votes unanimously one way or the other ( as they can do anything by unanimous vote). What happens if they disagree, even if one wins handily over the other?

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Ealdorman Cerdic Beoden Accynnafon of Östlond
Runner Up of the Glas Claddach Boat Building Competition
Minister of Justice

Right; I never meant that there was no tradition of claims review, only that it was very much de facto as opposed to de jure. But we're on the same page, aha.




Quite right. I do suffer from a temptation to make things more verbose than needed - yep, we don't want this to be wordy to a point where it isn't as accessible as it should be, especially to those learning about our claims process for the first time. Possibly just:

The highest legal authority of a realm recognised under the Council of the Crowned may at any time submit a claim for the addition of lands, currently recognised as unclaimed, to their realm. This may be formally requested in the form of a letter (post) to the Imperial Court.



Good idea! The Act doesn't need to specify a claim size, as these will always vary to some degree; however, a general guideline would work. Perhaps something like:

While individual claims may typically be on the order of approximately one to three counties - smaller regions of land that vary greatly in size and composition - there is no legal restriction to the size of lands that may be claimed. However, reviewers are instructed to consider items such as rank, current development of lands including population, number of settlements and infrastructure, number and contributions of vassals residing under the claimant, proximity to other claims, and justifications provided for the claim in determining whether a claim is justified.



Yep, you're right - I think I just misread the intent of the language, aha. We also, crucially I think, want to allow for the possibility of legal regional claims conflicts, which would enable neighbors to work out a dispute rather than drawing in the whole Council through legal ambiguity like, uh, a certain other claims conflict we had. So, agreed! I just wonder if it could perhaps be more in the vein of 'this is what might occur in the eventuality of a disagreement' rather than 'war may be declared due to this'? Just spitballing:

Dispute of Claims

If a claim is disputed between two or more parties and the conflict is not resolved following the Parliamentary review process, the parties may seek to settle the conflict. The parties may engage in discussion, may seek out enforced third-party mediation, and may make use of legal contract. Claims dispute may also be recognised as legal justification for war - in the event that a 'claims war' should be declared, terms (specifying the eventuality of the claim should each party be victorious) should be mutually agreed upon between all parties before combat commences. If all options to resolve a claims dispute have been exhausted, the Empire may convene a judicial hearing as described in the Indoles Carta to resolve the status of the claim.

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Wysterian Labourer's Council
Currently Holding Stewardship of Wysteria
Minister for Applications and Settlement
Forums Administrator

Very interesting topic indeed. I think we are starting to narrow it down. Just out of curiosity, are some of these areas looking to provide more guidance (guides) to already established legislation? I may be missing something but I thought things like independent expansion are already covered in other laws?

Aside from that, would it be possible to start laying this our in more formal legislation? It will take a bit of time for me to quote and respond to the content that is on here currently. Just an idea.

I like where this is going.

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Scrios V
King of Perth, Brother of Valyria

Here is some revised language to discuss:

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Land Claims Act

Process for Making a Land Claim

The highest legal authority of a realm recognised under the Council of the Crowned may at any time submit a claim for the addition of lands, currently recognised as unclaimed, to their realm. This may be formally requested in the form of a letter (post) to the Imperial Court.

The following items must be presented with a claim for lands to the Imperial Court so as to justify the claim:

* A map of both the immediate claimed area and in context with current regional and/or imperial maps
* Evidence that lands currently claimed are being used to an extent to justify the claim
* Statement of intent and purpose for the lands claimed

Approval of a Land Claim

Once a Claim has been made in the Imperial Court, the claim is open to comments from all members of the Mercurian Empire. Individuals may make comments and ask questions concerning the claim during the week following the claim being filed.

During this week-long period, any active sitting member of the Council of the Crowned reserves the right to subject the claim to a vote by the Council for any reason. If a majority (50% + 1) of active sitting members of the Council record a vote against the claim, the claim has failed and may not be acted upon by the claimant. If a vote does not receive this majority, the claim passes the vote.

Once the week-long period has elapsed, the claim may no longer be challenged in the Imperial Parliament.

Land Claim Size

While individual claims may typically be on the order of approximately one to three counties - smaller regions of land that vary greatly in size and composition - there is no legal restriction to the size of lands that may be claimed. However, reviewers are instructed to consider items such as rank, current development of lands including population, number of settlements and infrastructure, number and contributions of vassals residing under the claimant, proximity to other claims, and justifications provided for the claim in determining whether a claim is justified.


Dispute of Claims

There are multiple courses of action available in the case of a claims dispute between two or more parties over previously unclaimed land. The parties may engage in discussion, request third party mediation, or sign a contract. However, if this does not result in an agreeable compromise, a claims dispute may also be recognized as legal justification for war. In the event that a 'claims war' should be declared, terms (specifying the eventuality of the claim should each party be victorious) should be mutually agreed upon between all parties before combat commences. If all options to resolve a claims dispute have been exhausted, the Empire may convene a judicial hearing as described in the Indoles Carta to resolve the status of the claim.

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Ealdorman Cerdic Beoden Accynnafon of Östlond
Runner Up of the Glas Claddach Boat Building Competition
Minister of Justice

This revised language looks good. I can't see any fault with it and to my eyes nothing has been left out. What do the rest of you say?

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Petra Ravnikaar of The Veil