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 Post subject: Re: Valyrian Reprisal
PostPosted: January 30th, 2017, 5:45 am 
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Gimpy IV wrote:
Well he did blow up a ship supposedly, so thats some action. Again though I agree this kinda thing shouldn't happen without consulting people but it doesn't mean that this whole thing should be shut down instead of you two discussing a realistic outcome of this situation.


Words were exchanged.

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 Post subject: Re: Valyrian Reprisal
PostPosted: January 30th, 2017, 7:10 am 
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Duke

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lol Okiedoke.

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 Post subject: Re: Valyrian Reprisal
PostPosted: January 30th, 2017, 7:19 am 
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There is a massive difference in one boat (albiet being in a few peieces more than it should be) in a lore event getting to take a extended swim in the ocean, and a Valyrian navy RKO'ing what very well could be the strongest navy in the Empire out of nowhere. There needs to be a discussion on realm sizes affecting armies and navies first off. And better discussion if you want to be a part of another person lore as another point.

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 Post subject: Re: Valyrian Reprisal
PostPosted: January 30th, 2017, 12:13 pm 
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King

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So Mark's lore fleet is as strong and numerous as kingdom's fleets that have existed for centuries? Half a continent away no less? It was three entire realms and I did make sure to include destruction on both sides. What makes his boats unbeatable and able to take on three kingdoms? I know this story didn't happen canonically but by that logic the other kingdoms are tiny and might as well not exist in a lore setting at all. I don't like nor don't think that not as active players suddenly don't have any presence In the lore setting. That's disrespectful and weird.

Also dont appreciate the removed "Salt" comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Valyrian Reprisal
PostPosted: January 30th, 2017, 4:12 pm 
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Samyrrah Almandine wrote:
So Mark's lore fleet is as strong and numerous as kingdom's fleets that have existed for centuries? Half a continent away no less? It was three entire realms and I did make sure to include destruction on both sides. What makes his boats unbeatable and able to take on three kingdoms? -snip-

It'd seem weird to me too if this were the case.
I'd just like to go back and say that my main 'issue' with the post is it just seemed to summarize a lot all in one go. I think it'd be more fun for everyone if it slowed down a bit.
sam: The big realms all get their boats together and try to destroy ostlaed's boats.
giving mark the option (however unlikely) to say: ERMUHGERD ALL THE OSTLAED BOATS RUN AWAY AND WE GIVE UP.

as opposed to sam: we got all our boats together and attacked their boats and a bunch sank and we lost some and its over.

I'd like to see more back and forth in the lore like what has kind of been happening around the forum with everyone just posting their response to events and the outcome evolving naturally.

And I just want to say I'm not trying to shit on Sam here, it's just a thing that happens in this kind of setting, but if we let it continue it may start to turn into whoever writes/posts the fastest, their story 'wins' or whatever.

There's my two cents.
I've rambled long enough.

Please continue to be awesome people.

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 Post subject: Re: Valyrian Reprisal
PostPosted: January 30th, 2017, 4:54 pm 
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Nations age =/= Military strength

I am curious what a national census of other countries would show,I know Östlaed passed the 225000 mark in 540AI.

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Last edited by King Tiber III on January 30th, 2017, 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Valyrian Reprisal
PostPosted: January 30th, 2017, 4:57 pm 
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King Tiber III wrote:
Nations age =/= Military strength

I am curious what a national census of other countries would show,I know Östlaed passed the 225000 mark in 240AI.


He straight up doesn't care. If you've been here for 6 years and built very little, and posted next to no lore, you should be more powerful than everyone ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Valyrian Reprisal
PostPosted: January 30th, 2017, 5:12 pm 
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I don't appreciate your behavior at all through this Sam.

I am really pissed I'm having to type all out for you.

I. Many of us consider their realms population and lore forces to correlate with builds. Several of us that actually write lore more than once a year use the population counter and use it to influence our lore.

II. I had lore backing up that the Östron navy had been escorting merchant fleets with armed boats over a lore DECADE through the Khabranthian-Valyrian Sea canal, because of the attitudes of Khabranth in the Minervan-Khabranth "War":
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1271#p14719

III. I had established some time ago Pyrencia was my largest trading partner:
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1478

IV. There is no Imperial fleet. I've never even seen it mentioned in lore before. Perhaps it was on the forums before this, but most of the time throughout the wiki I saw mention of nations grouping together to take care of menaces to Imperial authority. Matter of fact, the only boat that I know of that is a dedicated Imperial vessel is one built by Östron shipbuilders near Oakland, a galliot ( on the left):
Image

V. The Emperor/Empress is not prescribed with powers to attack other nations for whatever they feel like. The Carta does not give them this authority.

VI. The Empire didn't do anything when leaders of entire nations were killed by other elements in the past. Several other realms have had various things happen without blockades happening. Obviously this is a different lore situation, but the lore actions of Dawnstar way outpaced what other nations were doing:

* GRHH didn't blockade Östlaed: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1614
He only called for freezing of assets, likely only enforceable if the Imperial Judicial Court did something about it. Pretty creative without effecting my lore too much, and created tensions without forcing my hand in a major way.

* Many nations refused to sign "Treaties of Understanding," basically saying they don't want to increase trade with an agressive bullying nation.

VII. In the lore, I warned realms that attempted to restrict mobility laws:http://hermertia.com/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1615
Awesome fun responses - not blockades, but requests to not dock in their lands - by Kaine and the GRHH. Again, no one forcing me to react to illegal behaviors.

VIII. Dawnstar threatened to take actions that outpaced even the others taken by other nations:
http://hermertia.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1614&p=16761#p16761

Of course, in this lore setting, my realm isn't going to respond to this ludicrous request for rather minor things. The threat in itself is rather laughable:
"Failure to do so will result in further Council backed sanctions and restrictions on foreign trade and Östron vessels, merchants and imports until your values return once more to those our Empire has held dear and proudly displayed for hundreds of years."

The reaction is so outsized for what's going on, that I have to write a realistic lore reaction here.

IX. I had lore planned to get out of this stupid situation so the Empire doesn't march straight to war. I've not built up lore since June just to end in Sam's Valyrian bloodbath.

X. Going back to point I - most of us avoid situations like this by having respect for each other in lore writing, asking first, collaborating in google docs, and trying to avoid situations where we need to compare military sizes. yes, I've had my character brag in lore about the huge Östron military forces, but I don't literally go around claiming I could destroy every realm's navy in one battle. That's just not realistic. I imagine even a fight with a smaller neighbor would still be a bloody, nasty conflict, and despite the realm being ruled by fanatics, they aren't stupid. Oh, and I've actually written lore and built things in game to prove my people are not uneducated - you know, things like libraries and universities.

XI. Elves openly attacking Östron forces would result in the fanatics and non-fanatics uniting together. I've long established the lore disdain for Elves among the Östron population - oh, and I've already begun to work on lore for how they could get over this in the future. Yeah, they are a bit racist, but I'm going to have fun showing how they get over it in the future - at least, unless snow elves come with an imaginary navy of 100,000 boats and burn Acholm to the ground.

XII. What populations (which I've guessed is somewhere on our census calculator around 60-100k for each more than likely) Valtoros and Perth do have are very spread apart and not likely to coordinate with the same efficiency as either Dawnstar or Östlaed. Also, they have far more ocean to patrol and deal with in remote parts of the Mercurian Empire that *might* have some piracy issues. I don't buy that they'd have a huge chunk of their fleet - which Östlaed would - in the upper Valyrian sea.

Summary: I'm really angry I'm having to write this. It's going to make me look like an awful person - as if I"m trying to dictate other's lore. However, what you're doing is the same thing and has no basis in what many of us consider elements for in game actions influencing our lore on a Minecraft-lore server. I don't care if realms have been around for years. If you don't have the builds and lore, you can't just waltz up and attempt to ruin/greatly influence someone else's lore because you feel like it at the time.

I'm not responding to any more posts in this stupid conversation.

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 Post subject: Re: Valyrian Reprisal
PostPosted: January 30th, 2017, 5:13 pm 
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Duke

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King Tiber III wrote:
Nations age =/= Military strength

I am curious what a national census of other countries would show,I know Östlaed passed the 225000 mark in 540AI.


Some (rough) estimates based on census data of varying age:
Casadia: 80,000
Dawnstar: ~20,000
Perth: ~100,000
GRHH: 35,000
Pyrencia: ~100,000 (Erastil has numbers but hasn't posted them IIRC)

Östlaed is by far the most populous, due in part to Acholm/Westmaed having more people than almost any realm.

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 Post subject: Re: Valyrian Reprisal
PostPosted: January 30th, 2017, 5:16 pm 
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Cerydon wrote:
King Tiber III wrote:
Nations age =/= Military strength

I am curious what a national census of other countries would show,I know Östlaed passed the 225000 mark in 540AI.


Some (rough) estimates based on census data of varying age:
Casadia: 80,000
Dawnstar: ~20,000
Perth: ~100,000
GRHH: 35,000
Pyrencia: ~100,000 (Erastil has numbers but hasn't posted them IIRC)

Östlaed is by far the most populous, due in part to Acholm/Westmaed having more people than almost any realm.


Pyrencia is almost certainly on part with Östlaed or above it. K'Valsaer alone is up to 90ish buildings now.

Östlaed is at 238,103, but that doesn't include new buildings in many of my vassals towns.

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